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Why is nicotine such a small part of the addiction?


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#21 Autumn

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:42 PM

I am getting a little tired of you putting out this BS when people here are trying to overcome their addiction to Nicotine. You are giving out unfounded information and it is not appreciated on this forum.

 

You are obviously no expert on nicotine addiction and I would appreciate if you keep you conspiracy theories and the subject about violent diarrhea to possibly a different forum, where they have an interest in discussing those subjects.

 

If you continue, your posts will be moved to pointless and if you start with even more bizarre advice and not focus directly on your quit and accept advice from the more knowledgeable about the the basic way to quit smoking, then you may have to leave the board altogether.

 

I decided to take to researching the alleged unfounded information by doing some research. I made sure to only look at those articles/studies that have been peer reviewed and credibly published.

 

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Also, there are various medical professionals backed by peer research that have spoken on nicotine working in a similar manner to how ramcon suggests, such as Joseph DiFranza, a medical doctor who has specialized in tobacco studies since 1980, and Dr. Peter Killeen, a credited behavioral neuroscientist who has published quite a few studies on addiction that coincide with his focus on behavioral conditioning / incentive. To back my statements up, I'll include some links below that document their status and credibility. They both have some interesting lectures on their findings available on YouTube and other video medias. I have watched them, but I won't share them or links to them here, just incase they are somehow inappropriate (they do mention certain devices). Both DiFranza and Killeen agree that for smokers, nicotine is an addictive agent. DiFranza focuses on the toxicity of nicotine on its own. Peter Killeen has done more research on the effects of nicotine on the non-smoking brain and both fully supports and directly states the idea that rancom suggested about how "In fact, to never smokers, it is nearly impossible to get addicted to pure nicotine in any form." It's important to note, however, that he stresses that because no one to date has smoked pure nicotine on its own versus tobacco as a whole, that there are no grounds to argue that nicotine is harmless, regardless of how addictive it may or may not be. He also stresses that the reasons behind nicotine being essentially non-addictive to never smokers has to do with the chemical changes that occur in the brain when someone ingests tobacco products. Feel free to search for their lectures on YouTube if you are interested, it's interesting stuff. :)
 

Credibility Links:

https://profiles.uma.../display/133044
https://www.abainter...terkilleen.aspx

 

As for the idea that nicotine is being researched as a viable drug for certain conditions, absolutely. If you google it you'll see tons of stuff pop up where nicotine (not tobacco, but nicotine) is being considered medicinally to aid diseases, two bid ones being Parkinsons and schizophrenia. There's a ton of published, credible research online to back that up. Check out "nicotine medicinal Parkinsons" or "nicotine medicinal schizophrenia" on Google if you want to see more.

 

I'll include some of the results I've found, since the burden of proof is on the one making their claim. :P
https://today.duke.e...edicaluses.html >> nicotine therapy considered for parkinsons/altzheimers

https://deepblue.lib...e=1&isAllowed=y >> nicotine consideration for parkinsons

http://umm.edu/healt...kinsons-disease >> cites nicotine as a possible protective factor for parkinsons

https://www.georgeto...e-nicotine.html >> nicotine may slow progression of alzheimer's

https://web.as.uky.e...cotineSchiz.pdf >> nicotine and its interactive properties with schizophenia

https://dspace.libra...ndle/10968/1744 >> nicotine's neurobiological effects on schizophrenic selective attention

 

etc etc

 


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#22 avian3

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:35 PM

I decided to take to researching the alleged unfounded information by doing some research. I made sure to only look at those articles/studies that have been peer reviewed and credibly published.

 

8yi0so.png

 

Also, there are various medical professionals backed by peer research that have spoken on nicotine working in a similar manner to how ramcon suggests, such as Joseph DiFranza, a medical doctor who has specialized in tobacco studies since 1980, and Dr. Peter Killeen, a credited behavioral neuroscientist who has published quite a few studies on addiction that coincide with his focus on behavioral conditioning / incentive. To back my statements up, I'll include some links below that document their status and credibility. They both have some interesting lectures on their findings available on YouTube and other video medias. I have watched them, but I won't share them or links to them here, just incase they are somehow inappropriate (they do mention certain devices). Both DiFranza and Killeen agree that for smokers, nicotine is an addictive agent. DiFranza focuses on the toxicity of nicotine on its own. Peter Killeen has done more research on the effects of nicotine on the non-smoking brain and both fully supports and directly states the idea that rancom suggested about how "In fact, to never smokers, it is nearly impossible to get addicted to pure nicotine in any form." It's important to note, however, that he stresses that because no one to date has smoked pure nicotine on its own versus tobacco as a whole, that there are no grounds to argue that nicotine is harmless, regardless of how addictive it may or may not be. He also stresses that the reasons behind nicotine being essentially non-addictive to never smokers has to do with the chemical changes that occur in the brain when someone ingests tobacco products. Feel free to search for their lectures on YouTube if you are interested, it's interesting stuff. :)
 

Credibility Links:

https://profiles.uma.../display/133044
https://www.abainter...terkilleen.aspx

 

As for the idea that nicotine is being researched as a viable drug for certain conditions, absolutely. If you google it you'll see tons of stuff pop up where nicotine (not tobacco, but nicotine) is being considered medicinally to aid diseases, two bid ones being Parkinsons and schizophrenia. There's a ton of published, credible research online to back that up. Check out "nicotine medicinal Parkinsons" or "nicotine medicinal schizophrenia" on Google if you want to see more.

 

I'll include some of the results I've found, since the burden of proof is on the one making their claim. :P
https://today.duke.e...edicaluses.html >> nicotine therapy considered for parkinsons/altzheimers

https://deepblue.lib...e=1&isAllowed=y >> nicotine consideration for parkinsons

http://umm.edu/healt...kinsons-disease >> cites nicotine as a possible protective factor for parkinsons

https://www.georgeto...e-nicotine.html >> nicotine may slow progression of alzheimer's

https://web.as.uky.e...cotineSchiz.pdf >> nicotine and its interactive properties with schizophenia

https://dspace.libra...ndle/10968/1744 >> nicotine's neurobiological effects on schizophrenic selective attention

 

etc etc

I will take a look at these when I have nothing but time to read in a couple of days.  :)


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#23 Autumn

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:06 AM

^^ Like. :P :)


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#24 lisapoker

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:59 AM

I agree with the nicotine point. Nicotine is mostly out of your body in 12 hours or so....so how do explain sleeping at night?
I took Alan cars class in NYC and I do believe it is more habit. Why would you wear a patch or chew gum. It is like giving a alcoholic some drinks to get off alcohol...we don't do that do we? Yes, I realize that you are cutting out the tar and chemicals with the gum and so on but, honestly I have a friend who is chewing 40 pieces of a gum a day that only smoked 10 to 15 a day!

I know I'm going to get some bashing. But, think about it, please.

I was a chain smoker when I drank , then, maybe 5 one day or 2 one day and if I left my house for 10 hours a day I did not take or crave a cigerette. When I sat on my terrace, needed a cig. Talked on the phone , needed a cig.

People are different kind of smokers.
I also have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day. Now she is addicted to nicotine but, she believes that in her mind more than me and tells herself that all day.

It is not just being addicted to nicotine and if you really think that you will never quit is my belief.

#25 GraceLove

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

Nicotine in and of itself is an extremely addictive substance. Could it have benefits when used in a specific way with specific dosages for a specific time frame? Sure...why not? There are hundreds of medications/substances that are extremely addictive that have a place in health care but only under certain circumstances.

 

So...the people that are arguing that it is not a nicotine addiction...do you really believe that you just have a habit of bringing your hand to your mouth over and over and over again while inhaling smoke? It's just a habit? That seems silly. Why would you do a movement that is absolutely ridiculous unless you were getting something out of it...a nicotine fix. Of course, the habit is part of it...but the habit wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the addiction.

 

I don't understand why people don't want to say "I am addicted to nicotine." I am an addict and it is only in admitting this fact that I will be able to recover.


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#26 Reisen

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 08:42 AM

Nicotine in and of itself is an extremely addictive substance. Could it have benefits when used in a specific way with specific dosages for a specific time frame? Sure...why not? There are hundreds of medications/substances that are extremely addictive that have a place in health care but only under certain circumstances.
 
So...the people that are arguing that it is not a nicotine addiction...do you really believe that you just have a habit of bringing your hand to your mouth over and over and over again while inhaling smoke? It's just a habit? That seems silly. Why would you do a movement that is absolutely ridiculous unless you were getting something out of it...a nicotine fix. Of course, the habit is part of it...but the habit wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the addiction.
 
I don't understand why people don't want to say "I am addicted to nicotine." I am an addict and it is only in admitting this fact that I will be able to recover.


It has been since proven, that Nicotine and several related chemical metabolites, have beneficial effects on the brain, and can be technically used as medication.
 
http://www.schizophr...ne.benefits.htm
http://www.medicalne...cles/315446.php
 
Some people even chose to self-medicate in that respect, given how addictive Nicotine is, it is however similar to medicating pain with Heroin. On one hand it has medical benefits, but it's dangerous as hell to take it, etc.
 
As it is with pretty much everything, the dose makes the poison, etc. Even if nicotine shows benefits to schizophrenia treatment, I doubt any doctor would suggest it, given the effects aren't really that pronounced, and the dangers of getting hooked on it, are quite high.
 
So there.
 

I agree with the nicotine point. Nicotine is mostly out of your body in 12 hours or so....so how do explain sleeping at night?
I took Alan cars class in NYC and I do believe it is more habit. Why would you wear a patch or chew gum. It is like giving a alcoholic some drinks to get off alcohol...we don't do that do we? Yes, I realize that you are cutting out the tar and chemicals with the gum and so on but, honestly I have a friend who is chewing 40 pieces of a gum a day that only smoked 10 to 15 a day!

I know I'm going to get some bashing. But, think about it, please.

I was a chain smoker when I drank , then, maybe 5 one day or 2 one day and if I left my house for 10 hours a day I did not take or crave a cigerette. When I sat on my terrace, needed a cig. Talked on the phone , needed a cig.

People are different kind of smokers.
I also have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day. Now she is addicted to nicotine but, she believes that in her mind more than me and tells herself that all day.

It is not just being addicted to nicotine and if you really think that you will never quit is my belief.


Just because the Nicotine is gone, doesn't mean the effects it has imposed upon your nervous and endocrinal system are un-done.

Nicotine and alcohol have different activation vectors in your nervous system. The effects both substances have, especially concerning the dosage are very different, and hence getting off of them is different, too.

Nicotine imposes dependency from a very tiny amount, and is very physiologically linked to our behavior. Alcohols in inherently different in that. The point of Nicotine intake is not intoxication, for instance, which is one of the major differences.

If you're really interested in how alcohol addiction works, I advice volunteering at an alcoholism clinic, I did this when I was at University for a couple weeks, and I learned a lot. Not just from the social workers, but also from the doctors and nurses, etc.

It's also quite eye-opening to what sort of people it "hits", there were layers, surgeons, politicians, software engineers, teachers, professors, together with people more linked to the cliche, like unemployed, former criminals, etc.

 

Having said that, substance addiction to Nicotine is only one part of it. Smoking is a lot about habitual uptake of Nicotine, it's why it becomes part of daily life. The reason people often restart smoking after months and years of not smoking, is because a false memory, of how well they felt after lighting up, and simply because we tend to associate smoking with times where we actually have time to smoke, like a break, or right after a nice meal. We tend not to remember the cigarettes we smoked after a fight with family members, or right before a job interview, or right after getting fired, etc.

 

The thing with smoking cessation is that it is a two-fold problem. On one hand you have the Nicotine substance dependency, and on the other hand you have years and years of habitual lifestyle changes to overcome. However dismissing one or the other is almost equally bad. Just having overcome the Nicotine urges after three weeks or so, doesn't mean you're out of the muddy waters. Same thing with switching to NRTs. Just because you got rid of your habits for a while, doesn't mean you can just go off of them, especially if you forget them. I've seen countless people asking for a cigarette, because they've forgotten their patch, etc.


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#27 Redtailbird04

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 12:40 AM

A dr once told me it was easier to get off the heroin than to kick nicotine.Any thoughts?
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#28 Autumn

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:37 AM

A dr once told me it was easier to get off the heroin than to kick nicotine.Any thoughts?

 

Can't speak from personal experience, but I know many ex heroin addicts that say it's too hard for them to quit smoking. So there's that. I think additional factors add to that difficulty, such as the social acceptance, ready availability, and low/mild short-term risks/effects of having a cigarette addiction.


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#29 marciem

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:28 PM

A dr once told me it was easier to get off the heroin than to kick nicotine.Any thoughts?

 

I think all of us have heard that, and most of us put off quitting because it scared the bejeezus out of us, having seen movies and documentaries of people going thru hard-drug/heroin withdrawal and imagining something even worse for ourselves with nicotine withdrawal.

 

That said... nicotine withdrawal does not entail the pain or sometimes life-threatening physical symptoms associated with heroin withdrawal.  There are plenty of discomforts and unpleasant symptoms that go on for a long time, but no real hurty-hurty pain.

 

I think the big difficulty with cigarette/nicotine cessation is staying quit.  As Rainbow above notes, the easy access and more social acceptance of smoking vis a vis heroin usage probably makes relapse to smoking easier.

 

To be honest, I love the "harder to kick than heroin" rep.  My never-smoker son and daughter think I'm Wonder Woman for having quit, because they've heard it too!  :)  :)  .


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#30 KeviZa

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:04 AM

I think a large part of it is psychological , we are made to believe that stopping smoking is difficult . That we are going to be irritable and moody and everyone best watch out ...

 

I read the book called EasyWay by Allan Carr before attempting this quit and he discusses this in depth , how most of it is in our minds .

 

I have to say , i have had a really easy quit . There have been moments when my temper got the best of me but they have been very few and far between .

 

I am only just past the two week mark but I have not really battled at all .

 

 

A dr once told me it was easier to get off the heroin than to kick nicotine.Any thoughts?

 

I have never tried heroine but I am a recovering crack addict clean for almost 6 years . I found that stopping smoking up to this point has been more difficult . I believe that one of the main reasons is even though there is a certain social stigma related to cigarettes these days , they are very readily available and I can smoke a cigarette much more freely than I can step outside and light up a crack pipe or inject a needle .

 

I have been around people withdrawing from heroine and can say that it is not a good thing to see , never mind experience . So I would say that physically heroine is far worse but probably find that cigarettes are harder mentally . 


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#31 bchris02

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 11:55 PM

If cigarette addiction were simply about nicotine then using gum, patches, vapes or any other source would be indistinguishable from smoking and be just as addictive. Logical, yes? But as any smoker will tell you, they're not. Giving up the substitutes is far, far easier than cigarettes and using them helps the symptoms by, I'd estimate at most, 5%. When I once tried with patches, I found it only marginally better than nothing while costing the same as a pack of smokes and guzzling gum constantly on the edge of an overdose still didn't remove the cravings.

 

So if it's not nicotine, what is it? What's in cigarettes that makes smoking them so much more than a nicotine delivery system?

 

Nicotine from cigarettes hits you much faster giving you more intense pleasure from it than what you get from gum, patches, or even the e-cigarette (though vaping is the closest we've come to imitating the cigarette, it still isn't quite there.)  Nicotine is the addiction.  If it wasn't, smoking other types of cigarettes would satisfy but they do not, other than to open the door to relapse.



#32 Mike Piano

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 02:43 PM

Probably some of the most skilled scientists in the world have been involved in what maybe the most wicked con trick in recent history.

 

Heaven only knows whats in the thousands of added chemicals.  

 

The sickening greed behind it all if of course inherent in many other areas of commerce/addiction.

 

The day will come centuries from now where people will find it difficult to believe cigarettes were ever successful marketed.

 

Sadly it seems the guilty still thrive on the proceeds of addiction and ghastly unnecessary suffering and death.


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#33 mikemcd

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:44 PM

That's because it's not simply about nicotine. It's about how hard the nicotine hits your brain because you inhale it. Think about coca farmers who suck on coca leaves throughout the day. They get mild stimulation that's not dissimilar to drinking a cup of coffee, and can take it or leave it. Compare that to smoking crack. Why is crack so much more addictive than sucking on a coca leaf? One is inhaled, one is absorbed through the skin. Nicotine patches and other NRT are absorbed, slowly, in measured doses, through the skin, and do not create what is called the "bolus effect." It's because of that bolus of nicotine hitting our brains fast and hard that we get so immensely dependent on nicotine, which mimics an important neurotransmitter called acetylcholine. Our brains actually have to grow millions of new receptor sites when we first get physically dependent on the drug, in order to handle the hard, fast hits of the acetylcholine mimic. It's a good thing, too, or we would have died of nicotine poisoning.

 

We never lose those millions of extra receptor sites. They are a permanent brain change. After about a year of zero inhaled hits of nicotine, the sites have gone dormant. Take heart though, the most dramatic changes happen toward the beginning of a quit!

 

One hit off a cigarette, cigar, nicotine-loaded vaporizer, or any other device we can dream up to deliver inhaled hits of nicotine will flood these receptor sites again and activate them, setting off the craving and withdrawal cycle all over again. It doesn't matter whether you've been 50 minutes or 50 years clean, if your brain is flooded, it has to respond. Look at what happens to the brain after just one inhaled hit off a cigarette:

 

receptors.jpg

 

The blue areas show where a tracer has been replaced by nicotine. More on these scans here: http://www.drugabuse...garette-craving

 

NRT works by providing a low level of nicotine in the body to help with withdrawal symptoms. As I said above, it does not create the bolus effect in the brain and does not flood the receptor sites with hard, fast hits of the drug. It's like sucking on a coca leaf to help you deal with withdrawal symptoms from smoking crack. You will still be going through major withdrawal on NRT, it just isn't the 100% withdrawal of cold turkey. Also, your receptor sites will be heading toward dormancy as long as you do not inhale even one hit of nicotine.

 

There's some good information here about nicotine and how it works in the body, and why inhaled nicotine, especially, is so addictive: http://www.pbs.org/w...e/nicotine.html

I am only 8 day quit.  Glad I ran across this post.  I know it will help me as  I continue.


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#34 Lin-quitting

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 01:04 AM

mike, it is a helpful explanation for us isn't it? Logic that we can use to talk ourselves through our quits.

 

I am under the understanding that this scientific explanation is exactly why our overriding mission here, our battle cry, is NOPE. As addicts we have to know that we can never take another puff without the serious risk of flooding those receptors and awakening the addiction all over again. Too many long-term relapses start with just a few puffs.


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