Nicotine good?

[Wintering]

I won't speak for Katie, but I'll say my thoughts...

Nicotine is harmful. How harmful nicotine alone is is obviously at the heart of the debate, but I like to think that we all realize that nicotine isn't harmless.

So using nicotine to get off nicotine...yep, we all get it, it works for some people, and a short term harm from nicotine alone is better than the real harm of smoking. Yes, I agree that an e-cig or long term use of nicotine is harm-reduction over cigarettes, but that is not the purpose of this forum...we are here for nicotine cessation as well as smoking cessation. Its in the policy here

So anyway, back to the topic...nicotine itself is harmful, and I think we can all agree it is addictive. Yes, I'll concede that cigarettes have additives that increase dependance, but lets all agree that nicotine alone is addictive. The problem, for this site, is we will demand in the end that you break the nicotine addiction entirely.

And when that day comes...and the long-term nicotine user (and still addict) goes cold off the nicotine, it can lead to nicotine relapse, and even smoking relapse. We have seen it here time and time again when NRT users eliminate NRT - it is the most fragile time of a NRT-user's quit, and we've seen many a quit lost to it. THAT is the fear here...or at least my fear when discussing things like "Nicotine good?"

If your intention is to stay on nicotine forever...then harm reduction or not, this really isn't the home for you. Honestly...I wish you the best, I hope you stay cigarette free for the rest of your life...but that doesn't share the purpose of this forum. The ECF shares that purpose, and you will find yourself MUCH happier there.

I hope that helps you see this side of the fence...I'm fine with e-cigs, just not e-cigs (with continued nicotine use) as a way of life.

Hi Samalie0, and thank you. I don't know if you read my original post - but I did go cold turkey for 10 days - with this forums help. (cigarette free since 4/17) During my physical crisis (Celiacs) the logical side of my brain gave me two choices - go back to a 37 year habit of smoking cigarettes, or trying the e-cig. Since I'm determined to quit smoking tobacco, I chose the e-cig. Now that I know why I was having so much pain (not the "nicodemon's" withdrawal tricks) I have been reducing the amount of nicotine I'm using. (similar to the gum or patch) When I first started, I was on 24mgs, then 18mgs, and now I'm down to 12mgs. With the help of Thulium, who's shown me how to safely (gluten free) reduce the amount down to 8, then 4, and then completely free. Yay!

As I've mentioned earlier .... I started my quit journey here. When I physically couldn't do it any longer, I chose the e-cig, finding information about the PV on the other forum. But since they aren't a quit smoking site, I returned here - to my original home, to finish my journey. But apparently, all I've done is ...... well, we won't go there.....

Thank you again for your encouragement. I'm getting there!

[Thulium]

I won't speak for Katie, but I'll say my thoughts...

Nicotine is harmful. How harmful nicotine alone is is obviously at the heart of the debate, but I like to think that we all realize that nicotine isn't harmless.

So using nicotine to get off nicotine...yep, we all get it, it works for some people, and a short term harm from nicotine alone is better than the real harm of smoking. Yes, I agree that an e-cig or long term use of nicotine is harm-reduction over cigarettes, but that is not the purpose of this forum...we are here for nicotine cessation as well as smoking cessation. Its in the policy here

So anyway, back to the topic...nicotine itself is harmful, and I think we can all agree it is addictive. Yes, I'll concede that cigarettes have additives that increase dependance, but lets all agree that nicotine alone is addictive. The problem, for this site, is we will demand in the end that you break the nicotine addiction entirely.

Samalie, I agree with you on all counts except for your conclusion that this is a problem for electronic cigarettes. People who are threatened by electronic cigarettes have pretended that the risks of continued smoking are even in the same ballpark as the risks of continued nicotine use and ignored the fact that if nicotine is really such a problem, e-cigarettes can help you to reduce or eliminate your dependence on nicotine by using an e-cigarette without nicotine. If this site wants to limit its membership to people who have a plan to quit nicotine by a specified date, that is Fred's right, but I believe that ever-smokers probably should not be encouraged to stop using smoke-free nicotine products unless and until they are certain they will not relapse to smoking. Is this site only for people who are certain that they will be completely nicotine or tobacco-free by a specific date?

And when that day comes...and the long-term nicotine user (and still addict) goes cold off the nicotine, it can lead to nicotine relapse, and even smoking relapse. We have seen it here time and time again when NRT users eliminate NRT - it is the most fragile time of a NRT-user's quit, and we've seen many a quit lost to it. THAT is the fear here...or at least my fear when discussing things like "Nicotine good?"

If your intention is to stay on nicotine forever...then harm reduction or not, this really isn't the home for you. Honestly...I wish you the best, I hope you stay cigarette free for the rest of your life...but that doesn't share the purpose of this forum. The ECF shares that purpose, and you will find yourself MUCH happier there.

I hope that helps you see this side of the fence...I'm fine with e-cigs, just not e-cigs (with continued nicotine use) as a way of life.

Since this forum was started and run for people who intend to quit all forms of tobacco and nicotine, I completely understand and agree that conversations about vaping as a lifestyle or even the comparative merits of cold turkey versus temporary or ongoing use of nicotine should be elsewhere. I am perfectly willing to "agree to disagree" on the harms of nicotine because I think we can all agree about the harms of smoking and electronic cigarettes can be used to quit either, neither, or both--with this sites' focus on the latter group, and people who aren't interested or ready to completely quit smoking and/or nicotine use can find more information on other message boards that aren't solely focused on quitting smoking.

Based on everything you've read or believe to be true about nicotine, please answer this question honestly: Do you believe that the risks of continuing to use smoke-free products outweigh any benefits such that you would recommend that someone stop using nicotine before they are certain that they will not relapse to smoking?

I agree with the suggestion from "Latest Guidance On Use of Nicotine Replacement Therapies"

NRT product labels say that the product should be used for 8 or 12 weeks, depending on the product. For some smokers, this is enough time to stop smoking for good. Some smokers do not need to use NRT that long to stop smoking. Other smokers may need to use NRT for several months or even years to stay off cigarettes. If NRT is helping you not smoke, we suggest you do not even think about cutting down on it unless (a) you believe you have a side-effect from NRT or (b) you have 14 days in a row with no cravings or withdrawal or near slips back to smoking. Using NRT longer than 8 to 12 weeks is not dangerous. Going back to cigarettes is very dangerous and could kill you! In fact, it is a common problem with NRT, that people don't even use it for the whole recommended 8–12 week period. We suggest you stop using NRT only when you feel very sure you can stay off cigarettes. If it ever comes down to a choice of using NRT or returning to smoking, stay on the NRT. A good rule of thumb is that if you are able to easily resist smoking without any cravings in situations that would have made you smoke in the past, you are ready to stop the NRT.

Basically, the advice is to not quit nicotine until you are "ready"... The problem is that some people are afraid that e-cigarettes might make some people less likely to ever be "ready", and while my heart bleeds for pharmaceutical companies who might have fewer addictions and smoking-related diseases to treat, even if some people ended up using nicotine for the rest of their life in order to avoid smoking, is that really too high a price to pay for freedom from SMOKING?

[Samalie0]

Based on everything you've read or believe to be true about nicotine, please answer this question honestly: Do you believe that the risks of continuing to use smoke-free products outweigh any benefits such that you would recommend that someone stop using nicotine before they are certain that they will not relapse to smoking?

You use a tough word there: certain.

The only certanties I know in life are death and taxes.

My honest anser to your question is No. Not because I don't agree that NRT is less harmful than smoking. But rather...bottom all truth as I know it:

I made excuses for 19 years on why today was not the day to quit smoking. If I left quitting nicotine for good to when I was "certain" I would be successful...well, bottom line, I wouldn't be free from smoking AND nicotine.

There are no promises; no guarantees. When you attempt to end your addiction to nicotine, you stand a good chance of coming back to it. Pretty much every last one of us have done it here.

E-cigs are less harmful than cigarettes, 100% without a doubt. But for this site, we're not asking people to reduce harm...we're asking people to break off their addiction, and that includes having a plan to get off of NRT if you are ising it to help you quit. And we'll gladly do everything we can to support members coming clean from nicotine.

Your earlier question, about people vaping nicotine-free? My personaly attitude is "whatever" - no combustion, no nicotine, no issue. I don't think it is any more useful than sucking on a straw (which I think is silly personally, but has helped some people here too), but if it is without nicotine and tobacco....meh. Do whatever you want to do.

[Thulium]

Based on everything you've read or believe to be true about nicotine, please answer this question honestly: Do you believe that the risks of continuing to use smoke-free products outweigh any benefits such that you would recommend that someone stop using nicotine before they are certain that they will not relapse to smoking?

You use a tough word there: certain.

The only certanties I know in life are death and taxes.

My honest anser to your question is No. Not because I don't agree that NRT is less harmful than smoking. But rather...bottom all truth as I know it:

I made excuses for 19 years on why today was not the day to quit smoking. If I left quitting nicotine for good to when I was "certain" I would be successful...well, bottom line, I wouldn't be free from smoking AND nicotine.

There are no promises; no guarantees. When you attempt to end your addiction to nicotine, you stand a good chance of coming back to it. Pretty much every last one of us have done it here.

E-cigs are less harmful than cigarettes, 100% without a doubt. But for this site, we're not asking people to reduce harm...we're asking people to break off their addiction, and that includes having a plan to get off of NRT if you are ising it to help you quit. And we'll gladly do everything we can to support members coming clean from nicotine.

Your earlier question, about people vaping nicotine-free? My personaly attitude is "whatever" - no combustion, no nicotine, no issue. I don't think it is any more useful than sucking on a straw (which I think is silly personally, but has helped some people here too), but if it is without nicotine and tobacco....meh. Do whatever you want to do.

I wholeheartedly agree. That is why I point to statistics that show that 98.4% of smokers who use Nicotine Replacement Therapy according to the FDA Approved nicotine replacement treatment relapse within 20 months as evidence that harm reduction is the best approach for the overwhelming majority of current smokers, but e-cigarettes can be useful for quitting smoking AND nicotine use if that is your goal and I'm here to support anyone who wants to use an e-cigarette in that way. I consider it a Good thing to leave the 99 to save the 1, and I've been posting on various message boards long enough to know how to stay on-topic on this one...But I digress--nobody's perfect!

[greenlover]

You just love to twist whatever you can to sort of prove some point-I'm so fed up with your gloomy precents-it makes it sound unless a person gratfully sucks on an E cig their doom to fail in their quit well I doubt that Rain,Skip,Steph or Katiem vaped their way intoa successful quit . No they did what millions do every day to find & keep a quit & while you hope if you persist long enough of the joys of being a vaper & that all these hard core quitters will throw away their quits & vap you're just wasting your time & wasting posting space. For the life of me why don't you run back to the ECF forum where they discuss how life is good or whatever.

[Thulium]

You just love to twist whatever you can to sort of prove some point-I'm so fed up with your gloomy precents-it makes it sound unless a person gratfully sucks on an E cig their doom to fail in their quit well I doubt that Rain,Skip,Steph or Katiem vaped their way intoa successful quit . No they did what millions do every day to find & keep a quit & while you hope if you persist long enough of the joys of being a vaper & that all these hard core quitters will throw away their quits & vap you're just wasting your time & wasting posting space. For the life of me why don't you run back to the ECF forum where they discuss how life is good or whatever.

I can put a positive spin on it, if you prefer: A whopping 1.6% of people who quit smoking using NRT according to the FDA Approved treatment plan were still smoke-free 20 months after treatment, compared to only 0.4% with placebos (aka stickers and sugar pills). Cold turkey plans like EasyWay and 12-Step "work if you work it" and have had long term cessation rates over 50% among highly motivated quitters, but that is no excuse to demean and degrade people who aren't ready for all that but still need to stop smoking, any more than it is an excuse to demean or not support people who have chosen to use e-cigarettes to quit smoking completely. Don't you agree that getting as many people who are unable or unwilling to quit completely as possible to at least cut down or quit SMOKING is more important than waiting for people to be "ready" to completely quit using nicotine while 8.6 Million American smokers have diseases that are caused or worsened by smoking??


I think it is fair to say that although this site condones the limited use of nicotine for therapeutic purposes, it does not condone or promote the use of nicotine for any recreational purposes. Because electronic cigarettes may OPTIONALLY contain pharmaceutical grade nicotine derived from tobacco, they may be useful as EITHER a recreational alternative to smoking for harm reduction OR as part of a plan to quit smoking and nicotine altogether, though they have not been clinically tested or approved by the FDA for this use.

[greenlover]

Why NOT rejoice when a person quits & God willing or whatever they stay quit-that should be the concern here-not what method they used or crap like that-every time I read those low percent it makes me want to run out & buy & smoke a pack-why can't you let this go??????????

[Thulium]

Why NOT rejoice when a person quits & God willing or whatever they stay quit-that should be the concern here-not what method they used or crap like that-every time I read those low percent it makes me want to run out & buy & smoke a pack-why can't you let this go??????????

I do rejoice! Congratulations on 20 days, greenlover! Sincerely. I'm proud of you and I understand how upsetting it can be to read posts from content e-cig users when you're having a nicotine craving, but you are stronger than that. You don't need the nicotine OR the smoke and you don't need to ridicule people who think they do. Keep your quit!

[greenlover]

My meter is at 20 days but I had 10 1/2 months in-I basically don't get craving but seeing those low success numbers makes me wonder why bother. Mostly e cig users are content cause their still getting their nic fix-why not be thrilled-after all vaping gives you the throat hit,hand to mouth reflex & good ole nic-why not be a happy camper sure you're not "smoking" but still getting benifits it must be like having friends with benifits w/o being bad (having sex or whatever) but the same idea basically. Having your cake etc.

[Southern Dragonfly]

Why NOT rejoice when a person quits & God willing or whatever they stay quit-that should be the concern here-not what method they used or crap like that-every time I read those low percent it makes me want to run out & buy & smoke a pack-why can't you let this go??????????

My understanding (and why I made the decision to sign up today!) was that this was a forum for people to discuss using ecigs as a method of quitting smoking. I think it's fabulous that you are 20 days cold turkey! I wish I had your willpower. But if this area upsets you so much, why do you come in here? My mom always taught me that no one but you can make you mad. Only you have control of your emotions. It's a very good piece of advice and has helped me keep my temper in check countless times.

And thulium is correct--you don't need smoke or nicotine!

[Thulium]

My meter is at 20 days but I had 10 1/2 months in-I basically don't get craving but seeing those low success numbers makes me wonder why bother. Mostly e cig users are content cause their still getting their nic fix-why not be thrilled-after all vaping gives you the throat hit,hand to mouth reflex & good ole nic-why not be a happy camper sure you're not "smoking" but still getting benifits it must be like having friends with benifits w/o being bad (having sex or whatever) but the same idea basically. Having your cake etc.

You have no reason to be discouraged by those success numbers because you aren't relying on a FDA Approved cessation plan to quit, you are an adult who has chosen to stop smoking cold turkey. People who are motivated enough to read a book or post on a supportive message board like this have DRASTICALLY improved chances of staying smoke-free long term. The overwhelming majority of ever-smokers who have maintained long-term smoking cessation have done so by either using smoke-free nicotine products indefinitely or other methods that have never been tested or approved by the FDA for their effectiveness in a laboratory. Nobody's tested the effectiveness of jellybeans, or bubblegum, or e-cigarettes, or chewing on toothpicks or sucking on a straw, or posting on QSMB as part of any "FDA Approved" smoking cessation plan, but that doesn't mean they can't be used as part of a individualized plan to stop smoking.

If you are concerned about the effects of nicotine, but are looking for a smoke-free alternative to lighting something on fire, you might try using an electronic cigarette with 0-nicotine, but if your quit plan is working for you, stick with it!

[greenlover]

Well unless Fred bans all members of this site as restricted e cig card carrying member only forum I don't have to stay out of here thats like ME saying damn I sure wish Fred would of booted those E cig people back in May but like you all think you're impressing us with the truth about E cigs my stand has been you want info on e cigs go to their websites,I'm not good with computers but I can find most stuff online.

[Southern Dragonfly]

Well unless Fred bans all members of this site as restricted e cig card carrying member only forum I don't have to stay out of here thats like ME saying damn I sure wish Fred would of booted those E cig people back in May but like you all think you're impressing us with the truth about E cigs my stand has been you want info on e cigs go to their websites,I'm not good with computers but I can find most stuff online.

Where did anyone say you couldn't come in here? I asked why you do if it upsets you so much, that's all. I didn't come to argue, so keep up your good work.

To keep it on topic, I won't argue that nicotine is either good or bad. There are studies that show benefits as well as side-effects. I'm not a doctor or a scientist. I am only human and I stuck a cigarette in my mouth when I was 14 and became addicted to nicotine. All I can say I know for sure is 1) I'm addicted to it. 2) My personal cessation plan that works for me has me using lower and lower amounts of nicotine while completely free from all smoke/tobacco and by January 1, 2012, to be at 0 nic. 3) I'm aware of what nicotine is and the possible side effects of its use. I am pretty sure that after freebasing the stuff for the past 24 years and not dropping dead from it, I won't drop dead from the much smaller amounts I get while I'm using it to quit smoking. 4) I have my doctor's approval. 5) The only thing in this world that has a guaranteed 100-percent death rate is birth. So during the short time I'm on this small rock floating in space waiting to die, I would like to live as comfortable as I can. If that means using nicotine to ease my anxiety, fears and withdrawals caused by smoking cessation, so be it. I hope everyone on this board finds their way to happiness, no matter what way that may be.

Have a nice night!

[greenlover]

I just want to defend those not into E cigs thats all.

[Thulium]

I just want to defend those not into E cigs thats all.

Defend them from what?